Letter from Colonel Dan Bryan to Frederick H. Boland with enclosure (Dublin)
(G2/0018) (Secret)

Dear Fred,
This is to acknowledge your note of Mrs. Clissmann's conversation.¹

Attached find Commandant Butler's² note on the same subject which differs in no material respect from yours. It is hoped to resume these conversations at some future date but nothing definite has been fixed.

The note on Veesenmayer which I had not seen previously is of very great interest. When I examined it without reference to other papers, it convinced me that it was an approach on the lines 'Russia will soon be finished. We are then going to tackle and finish off England. You have some interests in an area held by her, what are you going to do about it'.

Actually, a source of which you are aware has already given us some information as to Veesenmayer and his interest in Ireland. It seems (1) that Veesenmayer was associated with Ribbentrop³ and (2) that he was in some way connected late in 1942 with a plan for the landing of parachutists and airborne troops in Ireland. I am having all the relevant data extracted and will bring it to you in a few days.

Your note, combined with this information, convinces me that the Germans hoped in 1942 to finish off Russia soon, that the next job then on their list was England, and that Ireland figured in the picture.

Veesenmayer was evidently concerned with the Irish end of the problem. The source mentioned states that Clissmann actually worked under Veesenmayer.

A matter of importance is that Veesenmayer and an associate of his called Schellenberg⁴ were in British custody last year. The information placed at my disposal concerning Veesenmayer had been obtained from Schellenberg who only knew of the Irish problem to a limited extent.

This again directs attention to the problem you mentioned recently of the amount of information as to German interest in Irish affairs available elsewhere, which I will discuss with you when I see you.

[Enclosure]

INTERVIEW WITH MRS. CLISSMANN ON 3.6.1946

I met Mrs. Clissmann as arranged in Captain Ryan's (her brother in law) house in Skerries. After the usual preliminaries Mrs. Clissmann brought up the subject of my visit and the conversation was carried on for a while with a certain amount of reserve and diffidence.

One of the first matters she mentioned was Rehmann's⁵ visit here in 1939. Mrs. Clissmann related the details of the trip to Belfast and Cork much as they exist in our records. She was amused at the amount of energy spent by the Gárda in following Rehmann's movements who, she said, was a genuine Catholic clergyman, well known on the Continent as the choirmaster of the Aachen boys' choir. He was a school friend of both Clissmann and Hoven⁶ and naturally got in touch with them when he arrived here to arrange for recitals by the choir.

She said Clissmann was definitely not here for espionage purposes and explained that if he had stayed, as was the intention, he would have been interested only in the fostering of cultural relations between Germany and Ireland. The fact that he knew Maurice Twomey⁷ and other IRA personalities was not strange as he was of a sociable nature and intimate with persons of all classes and of widely divergent political views. She instanced his friendships with people in Trinity College.

From time to time during the war she said he had submitted, as had also Frank Ryan, memoranda on Irish Affairs to the German authorities. He had a great sensibility as regards Irish affairs and appreciated and understood conditions much better than most foreigners. He and Frank Ryan were most anxious that nothing should be done to prejudice Irish interests. She believes that those documents were destroyed in the burnings which resulted from the Berlin bombings.

Mrs. Clissmann doubts if any Frank Ryan papers exist on the continent now; he had the habit of destroying papers when he had finished with them. If he did have any during his last days she feels that Francis Stuart⁸ - who was with Frank Ryan when he died - would be the only one who could give information on the point. She mentioned that the German Foreign Office was also highly interested in the same question and she told them definitely that he had none. She mentioned that Ryan had no idea he was dying and in fact he had arranged to pay her a visit in Copenhagen and should have arrived the day he died.

Mrs. Clissmann mentioned also that when Frank Ryan first went to Berlin he was housed with some of the Bretons and told her he was disgusted with the way the Germans had treated them and their cause.

She laughed at any suggestion of foul play or mystery in connection with Seán Russell's death. She said it happened as Frank Ryan described. The commander of the submarine was named Stockhausen and he was present with Frank when Russell died. She said Stockhausen had been killed instantly in a car accident when he was travelling with a Finnish military attaché who lost his eyes on the same occasion. Their car had run into a lorry carrying iron girders.

Referring to Jupp Hoven she said he was a bad intelligence officer - that he had made a bad job of the Irish Camp and had been transferred to ordinary military duties as a result. She instanced as a proof of his indiscretion first that when he went to Rome to recruit a priest for the Irish Camp he picked one without establishing what his political affiliations and sympathies were and secondly while there under an assumed name, he childishly sent a card to one of the Mulcahy family with greetings 'from Jupp and Helmut'. He had had nothing to do with intelligence for the last few years and had been returned to duty as a line officer. He had fought with the German garrison which held out at Brest and had been captured.

She does not believe that the Germans contemplated at any time an invasion of Ireland but says that they would have come to Ireland's aid in the event of British or American move in from the North.

Mrs. Clissmann does not know where her husband is at the moment except that he is in Allied hands. He is not allowed to send or receive letters. She is anxious to secure his release and said he would be a much more valuable source of information than she is. She would be grateful if we would use our good offices towards having him released.

Mrs. Clissmann mentioned that she had told Mr. Cremin in Berlin a good deal concerning Frank Ryan and assumed that I had seen or heard that information. This remark was made following a reference to John Codd⁹ who she said had written her twice recently with a hard luck story and who had said he had met Frank Ryan in Germany. I said that was true but that Codd had known him as Frank Richards. It was at that point she mentioned Mr. Cremin who was aware of Frank Ryan's alias.

Mrs. Clissmann spoke of two letters she had arranged to have transmitted to her after leaving Copenhagen [that] had not reached her. These were addressed to a cover address in England and were to be sent from that cover address to a cover address in Ireland. This line had heretofore been satisfactory. One of the letters had contained some personal mementoes, including an old 'Fremden Pass'¹⁰ issued to Frank Ryan in Germany. She was quite sure the letters had been posted and had definite reasons for being so sure. She gave me the impression that she thought the letters might have been got and held by us. I told her that censorship no longer existed and if the letters had been impounded they must have been impounded elsewhere.

Towards the end of the conversation Mrs. Clissmann was becoming more expansive and I feel that she would be prepared to give whatever information she has on matters of interest to us. What has been given above came out in the course of a very general conversation during the whole of which her sister, Mrs. Ryan, was present. I played a passive role in the interview, leaving the trend of the talk almost completely to her and I made no attempt to force her on any particular issue. I feel that this was the wisest course to pursue in breaking down her reserve. Categorical questioning would have put her on the defensive and perhaps have prejudiced the possibility of another approach. As the matter stands I have established friendly relations with her and the road is open for further approach.