Memorandum by John J. Hearne 'The Kingsmere Conversation'
'(The Taoiseach and Prime Minister Mackenzie King)'

Prime Minister Mackenzie King invited the Taoiseach and the High Commissioner to luncheon at his country house at Kingsmere (P.Q.) on Thursday the 9th September. There were two other guests, Mr. L.B. Pearson, Under-Secretary of State for External Affairs (appointed Minister for External Affairs on the following day) and Mr. Norman Robertson, Canadian High Commissioner in London.

After luncheon Mr. Mackenzie King turned the conversation to Irish constitutional policy. He invited the Taoiseach to discuss the position of the Inter Party Government in the light of recent statements in the Dáil etc. on the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936.

The Taoiseach reviewed the constitutional history of Ireland since 1920 in rapid outline. He referred briefly at the beginning to partition. The burthen of his remarks was, however, directed to the constitutional developments since the Treaty of 1921 as Prime Minister King had opened the question of the development now pending.

The Taoiseach's statement emphasised the national trend away from the Crown as an appropriate or permanent expression of the association of Ireland with the Nations of the British Commonwealth. He went into this in great detail. He ranged the whole field with the easy familiarity of his unique knowledge.

He then dwelt upon the decision of the Inter Party Government to release the political prisoners when they assumed office. Ireland, he said, was enjoying a period of domestic peace heretofore unknown in his lifetime and the Government was determined to put an end to the bitterness that had poisoned Irish political life in the past twenty five years. He himself would devote all his strength and whatever influence he had or would have to the blessed task of maintaining peace amongst all Irishmen. If he could prevent it, no Irishman would ever again be executed or branded as a criminal because he stood against the Crown. The Crown had been the symbol of the humiliation and subjection of the Irish Nation and of the religious persecution of the Irish people. The attitude of the Nations of the British Commonwealth to the Crown was a different matter. That was their business and no Irish Government would seek to unsettle any constitutional arrangements which the Canadian or the Australian people accepted as the expression of their national will. But the attitude of the great mass of the Irish people at home and everywhere was clear, unequivocal, and unalterable. They rejected the Crown.

The Taoiseach's observations were listened to with deep - and, as he went on, growing - respect and interest by Prime Minister King and his colleagues. His observations were delivered with the great seriousness which characterises all the Taoiseach's utterances. There was not a trace of acrimony against the British people; on the contrary, he made a warm reference - timely, as it seemed, in his narrative - to the growing friendship between the two countries, the new Trade Agreement, recent visits of British statesmen to Ireland, etc. The repeal of the Executive Authority (External Relations) Act, 1936, would be part of a constructive policy aimed, he urged, at removing the last obstacle, but one, to closer friendship and normal international relations.

No summary could adequately record the Taoiseach's objective and masterly presentation of the historic Irish case against the Crown. He was superb. He excelled all his wonted excellence.

Prime Minister King was manifestly impressed by what was said and greatly taken by the ease and sincerity of the Taoiseach's manner. He at once expressed his appreciation of the sense and logic of the Taoiseach's clear cut statement and said that the Taoiseach had left no doubt in his mind as to the position and policy of the Government. He expressed his gratitude for the confidence reposed in him by Mr. Costello by the frank and sincere account which Mr. Costello had just given of our national situation. No one, he added, could have any doubt as to where the Irish Government stood.

Mr. King went on to say that the question would now arise as to how to express Ireland's relations with the British Commonwealth. He felt that something could be worked out to keep Ireland in some way associated. He was obviously at a loss and seemed to pass the problem over to Mr. Pearson and Mr. Robertson. He did not want us to cut too far adrift. In his off the record speech at the Country Club dinner on the 7th September at which Mr. and Mrs. Costello were his guests of honour he had emphasised the necessity for the Western democracies to stand together against the Russian challenge now forming up against them.

The Taoiseach had referred in his remarks at Kingsmere to the infirmities of the External Relations Act. There was some discussion on the text of that statute. ('symbol of co-operation' and so on.)

Mr. Pearson stated that recent reports from India and Pakistan had made it clear that neither would stay in the Commonwealth on the basis of the Crown. The question was whether the Irish precedent - upon the repeal of the External Relations Act - would inspire India and Pakistan to stay in or to go out. Mr. Pearson felt it might be used as a precedent for going out.

The Taoiseach emphasised the political necessity of a practical method rather than an objectionable formula of association. Ireland and Canada had immense historical and spiritual resources in common which rendered constitutional ties irrelevant. The essential relationship of kindred and outlook needed no formula. The factual relationship was there. He saw no reason why certain countries organised in the Republican form e.g. Ireland, India, Burma, South Africa, could not be associated for purposes of co-operation with other countries organised as constitutional monarchies e.g. Britain, Canada, Australia, etc. Inter-State or international co-operation between or amongst those countries could no longer be expressed in constitutional terms framed for a colonial Empire.

Prime Minister King agreed that the fact of co-operation was the important thing. Formulae were of little account.

Mr. Robertson referred to the question of Commonwealth preference. He spoke of the difficulty of holding on to the preference if there was no collective description of the countries to which it was to be accorded.

It was pointed out that under the Ottawa system preference was now a matter of agreement. The provision inserted in treaties to safeguard it had been generally accepted, and, if, in the future, a collective description could not be given of the countries to which preferences were to be accorded the countries could be named. It was a matter for agreement between the parties when a particular trade treaty was being negotiated.

Mr. Pearson saw no difficulty in this connection that could not be surmounted.

Mr. Robertson referred to the position as regards nationality. There was no discussion on this except that in reply to a question Mr. Robertson said that he did not think there was to be a new Canadian Citizenship Act.

The Taoiseach then opened the matters mentioned in the Minister's letter to him of the 20th August; basic treaty, diplomatic representatives, trade.¹

Prime Minister King and his colleagues listened attentively to the Taoiseach as he went over the points noted in the Minister's letter.

There was a brief exchange of views on the various points. Mr. Pearson said that the best course would be for the High Commissioner to take up the matters raised with him as soon as possible. This was agreed.

Reference was made to the London meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers. The Taoiseach in reply to a question by Mr. Robertson as to whether he would attend the meeting said he had not been invited. Mr. Robertson said that he understood that the British Government did not wish to embarrass the Taoiseach by an invitation to a meeting of Dominion Prime Ministers. The Taoiseach said that he appreciated that. We had not attended these meetings during or since the war. If something arose at the forthcoming meeting that would be of interest to Ireland he could be informed afterwards and he could give his views, if the others so desired.

At Kingsmere, the Taoiseach warmly invited Prime Minister Mackenzie King to visit Ireland before he returns to Canada from Europe in October. Mr. King did not definitely promise to come. A visit by him to Ireland now would, it is thought, be a timely return of the Taoiseach's call. It might be of immense significance to the whole future of Irish Canadian relations. The two visits would be a fitting inauguration of the new era.